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Spartel (& the Jacques Collina-Girard hypothesis)

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« on: May 11, 2007, 10:52:05 pm »

Atlantis Rises Again

Location is everything, and perhaps no location has been more debated than that of the legendary island of Atlantis. Now a scientist is arguing that a submerged landmass off the West African coast has a geological history that fits well with the first written accounts of the island.


 
Sinking feeling. The time line of events on Spartel Island according to Collina-Girard. By around 12,000 years ago, the island would have been almost completely submerged.

CREDIT: Marc-Andrè Gutscher
 

    Like a very long game of telephone, the Atlantis story was orally passed down for 9000 years before Plato immortalized it in writing. "There occurred violent earthquakes and floods," he wrote. "And in a single day ... the island ... disappeared in the depths of the sea." Plato reports Atlantis sat off the coast of North Western Africa, sank 12,000 years ago, and was inhabited by an advanced civilization. Since Plato's time, scholars and nonscholars alike have claimed to have deciphered the location of the lost continent. One popular theory suggests that Atlantis was in Greece and perished by volcanic eruption 3500 years ago. Yet, Plato never reported volcanic ash; plus, the location and timing are off.

     A sunken land mass suggested to be Atlantis in 2001 by geologist Jacques Collina-Girard of University of Aix en Provence in France also seemed a promising candidate because of its location off the northwest coast of Africa. His work indicated that the island, known as Spartel, sunk slowly under the rising sea levels of a melting ice age starting 20,000 years ago and that by 12,000 years ago it was less than 500 meters across. But this timing and gradual sinking also does not resemble Plato's account.
Now an analysis by marine geologist Marc-Andrè Gutscher of the University of Brest, France, may give new life to the Spartel hypothesis. At first, Gutscher's work seemed to discount the Spartel-Atlantis connection. A high resolution map he made with sonar indicated that the island was even smaller than Collina-Girard had speculated, meaning it would have been uninhabitable as long as 14,000 years ago.

But sediment gathered by Gutscher tells a different story. A magnitude 9 earthquake appears to have rocked the region around the believed time of Atlantis' doom, Gutscher reports in the August issue of Geology. At that time, the island would have been big enough to be inhabited. He also found evidence of subsequent earthquakes and tsunami's--apparently every 2000 years--that may have whittled the rest of the island away.

Did people live there? So far, Gutscher has found no evidence to support an ancient culture. "I will admit I was hoping to find concentric structures or walls of some kind," he says, "but we didn't"

The study provides more support for Plato's writings, says geoarchaeologist Renee Hetherington of the University of Victoria in Canada. But hard proof such as artifacts or structures needs to be found to confirm that a society actually inhabited this island, she says.

--GENEVRA ORNELAS
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2005/722/1



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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2007, 10:54:05 pm »

July 22, 2005

Seafloor survey buoys Atlantis claim
Earthquake debris shores up evidence for lost city.
by Andreas von Bubnoff
news@nature.com


"There occurred violent earthquakes and floods. And in a single day and night of misfortune... the island of Atlantis disappeared in the depths of the sea."

This account, written by Plato more than 2,300 years ago, set scientists on the trail of the lost city of Atlantis. Did it ever exist? And if so, where was it located, and when did it disappear?

In a recent paper in Geology, Marc-Andre Gutscher of the European Institute for Marine Studies in Plouzané gives details of one candidate for the lost city: the submerged island of Spartel, west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

The top of this isle lies some 60 metres beneath the surface in the Gulf of Cadiz, having plunged beneath the waves at the end of the most recent ice age as melting glaciers caused the sea level to rise.

Geological evidence has shown that a large earthquake and a tsunami hit this island some 12,000 years ago, at roughly the location and time indicated in Plato's writings.

Gutscher has surveyed this island in detail, using sound waves reflected off the sea floor to map its contours. His results bring mixed news to Atlantis hunters.

Ups and downs

“With the information we have from the ancient text, it may never be found, if indeed it ever existed.”
Floyd McCoy, geologist
University of Hawaii, Kaneohe

At first, his conclusions seemed disappointing. At the time identified by Plato for the city's loss, the sea level would have been fairly high on the island's banks.

According to sea-level measurements alone, Gutscher estimates the island "would have been reduced to wave-swept rocky islets" and would have been less than 500 metres in diameter, making it impossibly small for a sophisticated city.

But there is a saving grace. Gutscher says the island might have sunk further since those times from seismic activity.

Layers of turbidite, the sand and mud shaken up by underwater avalanches, suggest that eight earthquakes have happened in the area since Atlantis sank. Each earthquake could have resulted in a drop of the sea floor by several metres.

So 12,000 years ago, Spartel might have been 40 metres higher than expected, and could have measured five by two kilometres.

"This is an interesting contribution to the discussion," says Jacques Collina-Girard, a geologist at the University of the Mediterranean in Aix-en-Provence, who suggested Spartel as a candidate for Atlantis a few years ago.

Simple folk

"This does not mean the island was inhabited," Gutscher cautions. At a conference of Atlantis researchers in Greece this month, he became convinced that the sophisticated city described by some could not have existed this long ago. "If inhabited, it would have probably been simple fishermen and not a Bronze Age culture as described by Plato," he says.

The Bronze Age is usually described as beginning just 5,000 years ago. Gutscher adds that his sound reflection data revealed no unusual geometric structures that could suggest an extinct civilization.

He says that the Egyptians who told Plato the Atlantis story may have used a different definition of 'years', meaning the destruction of Atlantis happened more recently than thought.

Candidate city

The conference in Greece came to no firm conclusions about the city's existence. But researchers managed to agree on 24 criteria that a geographical area must satisfy in order to qualify as a site where Atlantis could have existed. The place must have accommodated such oddities as hot springs, northerly winds, elephants, enough people for an army of 10,000 chariots, and a ritual of bull sacrifice.

At present there are half a dozen candidates for Atlantis's location, each one with its own shortcomings. Some say that settling on a final answer may prove impossible.

"The geophysics is well done, the geology excellent," says geologist Floyd McCoy of the University of Hawaii, Kaneohe, of Gutscher's study. "But most of Plato's description of Atlantis is so ambiguous and open to interpretation. With the information we have from the ancient text, it may never be found, if indeed it ever existed."


1 Gutscher M. A., et al. Geology, 33. 685 - 688 (2005).

Article Copyright © 2005 MacMillan Publishers Ltd. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1908
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2007, 10:54:53 pm »

Since 2000 years, the history of the atlantide, swallowed up 9000 years before our era, was the object of the speculations more various.  According to Plato (IV° century before our era) this narrative would originate archives of the Egyptian priests of the city of Saïs. 

In the "Timée" Plato insists to present the narrative of the engloutissement of the atlantide as a true history.  The moralist serves himself next of this event to develop a city utopia ideal … Since two thousand years, in the absence of data archeological or geological, the innumerable speculations on the myth of the atlantide are based only on the testimony of the Greek philosopher.  After debating during centuries of the serious one information, the majority of the hellénistes treat now this testimony as a fabrication (vidal-naquet, 2000).  It true that none of locations proposed by the favoring Atlantide real one does not correspond, or in place or in dates, to the matter of the Egyptian priest.  Too much ramblings ésotériques have besides, discredited the research of an anchorage in a geological one besides untraceable reality (Kukal, 1984). 

The universal myth of the swallowed one up city always exercises such a fascination that it is difficult to do leaves it imaginary one and reality

At first of our era, the philosopher neo Platonic Proclus enumerates the envisaged hypotheses to his era (Festugières, 1966) : total philosophical utopia? does real? does partially real?  For lack of factual arguments, two thousand years of exegesis not nothing brought of more to the analysis of Proclus, resumed, to the letter, by Brisson in his introduction to the Critias (Brisson, 1999).  We will evoke here the two positions more extreme before approaching the intermediary position than the Geology now could confirm. 

A special forum celebrates Science with Jacques collina-girard will be opened of the 3 to October 21 you will be able to put him all your questions. 

Brief

Three different positions THE geological HISTORY of the straits of Gibraltar The end of the paléodétroit The geological reality heart of
the myth?  Before the writing: the oral tradition?  Conclusion Bibliographie

http://www.futura-sciences.com/comprendre/d/dossier549-1.php



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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 10:55:41 pm »




Jacques collina-girard THE atlantide and Gibraltar - 25/09/2005 following preceding Carte blanche to:  Jacques collina-girard Geologist To Discover his trade To Read his bibliographie His dedicates

Position 1:  All imaginary east in the narrative of Plato


Leaving a tradition, presented as authentic, Plato develops the fiction of an Ideal Republic, opposed victoriously to an invader Atlantic.  As a novelist that, from a does various, constructs his matter, the philosopher puts together a moralistic fable.  The complex corporation atlantidienne of the "Critias", transposed utopia in the past of a history presented as true, is very confession of his author, imaginary (this is we that let us underline) :  "The citizens and the city that yesterday you represented us as a fiction, we will transpose them now in the order of reality: we will suppose that it is a matter of the city that here: the citizens that you had imagined, we will say that this are these, the true ones, our ancestors, those of which had spoken the priest.  There will be agreement completes, and we not at all will wander if we assert that they are well those that existèrent in those times.  "



Plato

THIS IS also the opinion of the learned, familiar ones of the Greek texts, that there rediscover, transposed and idealized, the cities states contemporary of Plato.  The current tendency with these specialists is again more radical since she generalizes this opinion has the entirety of the narrative.  One refuses then all net one, and has priori, the evocation of a real event that would be the source of the history.  It true that all the "interpretations" proposed so far are being delirious.  One will find an inventory of these productions litteraires where the science fiction claims to replace the science in a recent work on these "imaginary atlantides".  Science novelists fiction and holding fantastic archeology currently contributed to do the comments of the antique philosopher a modern one always living myth, of which the general public, more familiar of Walt Disney than of Plato, has well often completely forgotten the sources! 
Outside of the scientific field, but itself while claiming, certain vulgarisateurs, not very exacting regarding coherence with the archeological and geological data, evoke a continent populated of a very advanced, swallowed one up civilization somewhere between the old one and the New World.  This civilization ghost would be the hypothetical source but asserted, of all the big civilizations of the antiquity since egypt to the Mesoamérique.  The man would divert thus ancestors more illustrate than those discovered by the archeology "official".  The research of prestigious native Fathers (indeed extraterrestrial!) with recalcitrant authors to all rational argument is a constant one sufficiently clear one and repetitive, to relate back to mechanisms psychopathologiques shed.  Position 3:  The narrative of Plato could be partially true Exasperated by the deliria of the atlantomanie most of the hellénistes do not evoke anymore the possibility of a reliable tradition.  To the VI century after J.C, Proclus does not exclude nevertheless this possibility in interprètant the text of Plato as a reality mixture historic and of allegory.  To support this view point Proclus quotes Marcellus and his geography treaty "on the things éthiopiques" (on Africa) : this source would confirm the testimony of Plato while evoking the tradition of an archipelago of seven swallowed ones up islands to the gone out of the Columns of hercules.  Certain specialists of the Greek texts, interviewed by the magazine "Science and Life" do not seem as adamant as their colleagues and do not refuse, without arguments, the possibility as there can be a reality kernel in the myth.  Of fact, for lack of new facts to pour to the file since two thousand years, supporters and opposing of a real Atlantide do nothing but to assert, more or less violently, personal impressions …


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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 10:56:23 pm »



The discovery of a swallowed one up island to the place and to the date advisable by Plato would be evidently a decisive argument to support an in contrast to position the currently dominating ideas.  Before the second World War, one had looked for this Atlantide "damaged in the sea" in America, to the Azores, to the Canaries, to Madère, in Iceland, in Tunisia, in Sweden, in western Africa, to the Sahara … Etc.  The attempt more recent was the one of the Greek archaeologist Marinatos that wanted to assimilate the atlantide to the Crete of which the civilization would have been ruined by the explosion of the Santorin.  This hypothesis is abandoned: or the place, or the date do not correspond to the text of Plato.  Besides the correlation between the ruin of the Cretan civilization and the explosion of the Santorin is not anymore so certain!.  For lack of find a swallowed one up island in the Atlantic the Czech geologist Kukal concludes, at the end of a serious inventory of the possibilities, that it there has not nothing habitable in the Atlantic except the zone of Madère and Azores.  Unfortunately, none of these islands was not lived has a sufficiently old era to be candidate.  The discovery of Madère and Azores does not seem previous to the Roman era.  The occupation of the archipelago of the Canaries does not climb back up to more than 2000 years before we and these volcanic islands to the abrupt flanks are not surrounded by sufficiently wide continental shelves to hide something else.  Brief THE atlantide and Gibraltar Three different positions THE geological HISTORY of the straits of Gibraltar The end of the paléodétroit The geological reality heart of the myth?  Before the writing: the oral tradition?  Conclusion Bibliographie To Vote for this file

 

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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 10:57:13 pm »

Curious, one looked for testimonies of this island very far in the Atlantic without never to evoke the immediate opening of the Detroit of Gibraltar while Plato says explicitly that the island Atlantide is located:  "In front of the columns of hercules".  Our knowledge on this region benefitted from recent geological studies from the perspective of a construction project of a tunnel between Africa and Europe.  Besides, of recent countries of prospected update our knowledge on the prehistoric archeology of this region key again little known.  The prehistorians wonder again on the prehistoric sites immersed Moroccan and Iberian coasts and on the reports, again poorly elucidated between the two continents during the Superior Paleolithic.  This is following these countries, on a suggestion d' HAS. Bouzouggar that we were very interested in the Detroit of Gibraltar of the end of the last glaciation. 



Straits of Gibraltar

The current landscape of the Detroit of Gibraltar is, to the ladder of the geological, recent times: this is the direct inheritance of the climatic warming that succeeded the last glaciation.  The level of the sea is climbed back up of 135 m in the space of twenty thousand years while submerging the continental shelves between 19000 BP and the beginning of our era.  The absence of surrection tectonic of big amplitude during the last ones 20 000 years was verified by the Spanish geologists.  It suffices therefore, to restore the geography of the straits of Gibraltar of the glacial era, to do descend by the thought the sea of 135 m (Figure 1).  This depth is the one currently admitted for the sea level of the last glacial maximum. 




Figure 1 To The northwest of the Cape Spartel, a top melts (Banco Majuan or Bench Spartel of the Spanish marine cards, The Ridge of the marine English cards), oriented NOT sw, formed then an island (14 km of long one on 5 km of wide one).  His summit peaks to –56M (Fig.1, n° 1).  This island was not isolated and was part of an archipelago.  Three small islets constituted as much relays towards the Iberian continent (Fig.  1: n°2, n°3, n° 4).  The pass between Mediterranean and Atlantic, very shrunken in comparison with the current one, considerably was extended towards the west by the émersion of the European and African continental shelves.  The island of the Cape Spartel faced this widened goulet towards the west in a protected havre of the houle of the ocean.  Three islands blocked the access to the big wide one (Fig.  1 n° 5, n° 6 and n° 7).  Altogether this paleo-detroit of the last glacial maximum (Fig.  1) extended itself by an internal sea bathing an insular world.  This his towards the ocean Atlantic spread itself on 77 west Km some Is and of 20 to 10 km of the North to the South.  One reasonably can suppose that this island, situated to 5 km-8 km of the coasts was occupied by the Paleolithic populations of which the presence is abundantly testified on the coastal Moroccans, Spanish and Portuguese.  The émersion period of the archipelago of the Cape Spartel coincides with major replacements of populations.  In Africa of the North and on the Iberian continent, The glacial maximum, sees the elimination of the homo sapiens archaic by the modern men of the superior Paleolithic.  These populations shed themselves quickly on the African and European coasts between 18 000 and 9000 before our era before undergoing the effects of the climatic warming and climbed back up one sea on their insular and coastal territories. 

http://www.futura-sciences.com/fr/comprendre/dossiers/doc/t/histoire/d/latlantide-et-gibraltar_549/c3/221/p3/
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2007, 10:58:00 pm »

The climatic warming that puts an end to the last glaciation accompanies itself of an accelerated bottom of the polar ices and of a climbed one back up jerky one sea level (135 m altogether in 10 000 years).  The steps of this "transgression finiglaciaire" well knew thanks to carried out drillings these twenty last years in the tropical coral reefs (Barbades, Tahiti, New Guinea).  These reefs are excellent markers of the position of the sea level: the coral fresh growth accompanies it climbed back up of the sea.  Constituted carbonates these organisms are perfectly datable to carbon 14.  The published bends are coherent (Figure 2) and show the same steps in the climbed one back up one sea.  According to these data, the submersion would be uniform outside of at least two periods of collapse accelerated glacial where it climbed back up of the sea attains 4 m by century (2 m in a life of a group of around fifty year!).  Recent data, on the estuary of the Rio Guadiana, (Algarve, coasts of the border hispano-portugaise) allowed confirming locally this scenario. 




Figure 2 These bends allow understanding the steps of the engloutissement of the Paléodétroit under the sea that leaves places to the current landscape 11 400 years before we.  To the glacial maximum (19 000 before the present), the sea, to -130/-135 m leaves totally emerged the archipelago of the Cape Spartel (Fig.  1).  The climbed one back up one sea begins itself next to attain the level of the - 100 m to 14 000 before the present, period where she quickens brutally (Melt Water Blows 1A) The sea climbs back up next more slowly to the coast - 55 m to 11 300 before the present dates back to a new acceleration (Melt Water Blows 1B).  This accelerated transgression submerges definitively THE ISLAND of the Cape Spartel (-56m) and the island North of the pass West (Fig.  2-5) alone residual witnesses of an archipelago of which the other islands (between -80 m and -130 m) disappeared at the time of the acceleration of 14 000 before the present (Fig.  2). 

http://www.futura-sciences.com/fr/comprendre/dossiers/doc/t/histoire/d/latlantide-et-gibraltar_549/c3/221/p4/
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2007, 10:58:51 pm »

Timée:  "In fact, in those times, one could cross this sea.  She had an island, in front of this passage that you call, done you say, the columns of hercules" "Geology:  To the west of the Straits of Gibraltar an internal sea preceded the ocean Atlantic.  One easily could cross this sea to attain the African and European continents An island, currently immersed faced the "columns of hercules" (Fig.1).  Timée:  :  "For of a side, in inside of this straits of which speak to us, it seems that there be only a havre to the tightened goulet and, other, to the outside, there is this true sea and the earth that the surrounds and that one can call truly, to the clean direction of the term the one continent."  Geology:  Plato describes perfectly the Detroit of the glacial period (Fig.  1).  The pass Is presents itself well as a very narrow corridor ("havre to the tightened goulet").  The party west forms a small internal sea (77 Km of long one for a width of 10 km to 20 km).  This Mediterranean in miniature, his before the ocean Atlantic, almost was closed by the émersion of the European and African continental shelves. 



Plato Timée:  "And the those times travelers could pass of this island on the other islands, and of these islands, they could win the whole continent, on the opposed shore of this sea that deserved really his name."  Geology: from this island, one could pass on the others (Fig.  1, 5-6-7) and win next the continent to the North or to the South after to have crossed a sea almost closed (to the west by an island barrier) of 77 km on 20 km (sea "that deserves really his name").  Proclus (V° century of our era) quotes for its part, a geographer, Marcellus and about ten disappeared iles in front of the Detroit of Gibraltar.  Timée:  "This island was bigger than the Libya and Asia met".  Geology:  At first sight, the dimension given by Plato is without commune measures with the one of the island of the Cape Spartel and other islands of the archipelago.  One nevertheless can raise in the Critias a contradictory indication or this not more the dimension of the island Atlantide of which one speaks but the one of the range of the territory of the "atlantes" :  "… Not only were they masters of several other islands in the sea but again, as it was said earlier, their power spread itself on the regions that are located in on this side héraclès columns, up to Egypt and to the Tyrrhénie".  It was also the case of the prehistoric populations that had just invaded the coasts of the Maghreb of the Columns of hercules has the Tunisia while their European counterparts shed themselves on the coasts of the European continent to the Thyrénnie (and well beyond!).  Maybe, it is necessary, also and simply, suppose a certain drift idealizing, during 9000 years of oral transmission?  The has priori Plato wanting to idealize the power that it opposes to the former Greeks in his fiction is not maybe foreign has this exaggeration. 

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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 10:59:36 pm »



Cape Spartel

The antique commentators did not seem to take to the serious one the dimensions that Plato attributed to the island Atlantide.  Explicit Proclus for us this special point:  "It is necessary here to remember the basic principles of Plato on the earth, to know that it not some measures the magnitude of the same manner that the mathématiciens, but considered that she has bigger range, as the said Socrates in the Phédon, and puts than there is many other places of almost equal stays to our lived earth.  This is the reason it retrieves the existence in the exterior sea, of an island and of a such a extent continent.  Timée:  "This is therefore of your fellow-countrymen of there is nine thousand years that I will discover you briefly the laws" Geology: this date (11 000 years BP.) coincides exactly with the one of the submersion of the two major islands of the archipelago of the Cape Spartel.  The sea attains the coast - 55M about 11 Ka BP.  (Fig.  2) : this is, curious, the exact date advisable by Solon that had not nevertheless no knowledge of the steps of the climbed one back up one glacial finished sea!  This exactness disrupting is maybe pure coincidence, but, it is necessary to recall that, in the corporations without writings, the discount of genealogies is very practiced with examples of lines memorize during more than thousand years in African corporations.  The Egyptians recorded the events and the dynasties since more than 3000 years.  They could strong well to have recorded the genealogical lists of the previous and attained corporations to a chronology at least approached the events.  Timée:  "But, in the time that suivit, it there eut of the frightful earthquakes and cataclysms.  In the space of an alone day and of a terrible nights, all your army was swallowed up at one go under the earth, and of even the island Atlantide s'abîma itself in the sea and disparut.  Here why, today again, this ocean of over there difficult east and inexplorable, by the obstacle of the muddy and very low funds that the island, while swallowing up itself, deposited."  Geology:  Outside of the certainty of an accelerated submersion (4 meters by century) paléodétroit and of his archipelago, contemporary of the swing towards the conditions interglaciaires current, it is not excluded that of the seismic phenomena or tidal waves be themselves products in the same temporal fork as the watches the historic examples.  The earthquake of November 1 1755 (Intensity 10-11 on the ladder of Mercalli), of which the epicenter was submarine, partially destroyed the Lisbon city and released a tidal wave on the quotations Portugueses and Moroccans.  The waves of this tidal wave attained more than 6 meters to Lisbon, more than 5 meter to the Cape St Vicente (SW Portugal) and more than 10 m throughout the Gulf of Cadiz.  Altogether, the Geology proves the reality of a swallowed one up island 9000 years before Plato in front of the Detroit of Gibraltar (the columns of hercules).  Plato sends back for its part to a tradition égyptienne engloutissement of an island in front of the Columns of hercules (the straits of Gibraltar) :  Except improbable coincidence it can himself although these two speeches relate back to a same reality, the one of geological facts proved and vérifiables transmitted by the oral tradition …


http://www.futura-sciences.com/fr/comprendre/dossiers/doc/t/histoire/d/latlantide-et-gibraltar_549/c3/221/p5/
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 11:00:29 pm »

The prehistory of the hunters cueilleurs shows conservatisms that imply the transmission of traditions during millenniums.  The European prehistoric art remainder, practically unchanged during more than 20 000 years.  In the cave of the Parpallo close to Valence (Spain), John Clottes, raised the récurrence of unchanging rites during 10 000 years (repeated offerings with 4500 engraved or painted small plates in of the put to bed going Gravettien to the Magdalenian final one).  As the notes this specialist of the rock art:  "These behaviors indicate indisputable manner of the persistence of the same religious tradition on ten millenniums". 



Caves under navies on the bench of the Veyron to Marseilles © Jacques collina-girard All reproduction rights forbids To Canada, one was able to correlate geological events (landslides, volcanic eruptions, drying up of lakes) to the myths of the Indian Gitksans:  The events of which it is question took place between 6000 BP and 10 000 BP.  The Indian ones send back often to a time before or after the flood ("Before the flood" or "Soon after the flood") referring itself to the first population of their territory, liberated ices at the end of the Pleistocene one and at first holocène More close to us, the homère narrative of the Troy war a long time was considered as a myth.  Nevertheless the archaeologists are currently unanimous to admit his historic foundation.  Recent geological studies showed that the reconstruction paléogéographique of the landscapes adjusts themselves exactly to the narrative homérique while that i's has only a distant report with current geography.  Towards the VII century BC, the Bible transcribes oral traditions, echos of historic events vérifiables and probably geological very old facts.  More recently, to the IV° century BC, Plato writes the Timée and the Critias.  Their author, big
traveler, had taken knowledge, in Egypt and in Sicily, of legends and of historic facts on the western pool of Mediterranean and can be regions océanes. 



General view of the cave of Taforalt (Eastern Morocco).  © Jacques Collina Girard - All reproduction rights forbids The cave of Taforalt is a major site to understand the evolution of the prehistoric cultures of the superior paleolithic of the Africa of the north.  To levels "Atériens" (type industry average paleolithique cut by a modern man archaique) that seem to begin towards -100 000 succeed abruptly about 25 000 BP of the levels "iberomaurusiens" (industry of the superior paleolithic to outillage microlithique associated to modern men).  The iberomaurusien finishes about 10 000 B.P and evolves towards the neolithic.  The site furnished many sépultures of the men iberomaurusiens and many pieces of information on their life method.  The searches in this site one resume recently.  These men iberomaurusiens saw the émersion and the disappearance of the islands of the Detroit of Gibraltar If the ethnographie and the prehistory show us the effectiveness of the oral tradition with the peoples without writings and the aptitude to transmit on millenniums to remember it disastrous natural events why will we refuse this possibility to the antique peoples?  Why a tradition of
this type would not have she been able to succeed in the first Egyptian scribes for next to be transmitted to Plato?  Maybe it is necessary to believe the Greek philosopher when it asserts the véracité of his history!  The cataclysm that well unfolded itself to the date and to the advisable place suggest that transmitted information was, can be reliable! 

http://www.futura-sciences.com/fr/comprendre/dossiers/doc/t/histoire/d/latlantide-et-gibraltar_549/c3/221/p6/
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 11:01:29 pm »

In the Straits of Gibraltar, the geological history of the island of the Cape Spartel and of his archipelago adjusts itself to the retrieved tradition 9000 years after in the "Timée" : place, dates back to submersion and geography coincide.  The transcription by the Egyptian scribes, after 5000 years of oral transmission, was able to be possible as early as 4236 BC.  This date the one of the first calendar based on the got up héliaque of Sirius, (astronomically dated) and the one of the beginning of the writing hiéroglyphique. 




A visit inside the cave of Taforalt, where the levels cendreux superior correspond to the archeological dépots "ibéromaurusiens" (25 000 BP-10 000 BP) The "myth" atlantide could send back, at least some left for oral traditions, alone witnesses about 9000 BC of the collapse of a world squarely apogee: the one of the hunters of the end of the Paleolithic and of them.  It is true that the alone certainty is that the real geological history of the Detroit relates a "true history" near of the one retrieved by Plato.  Itself it is a question of a pure coincidence or do we touch here to the origin of the myth that would have inherited knowledge, older, oral tradition … The question remains opened!  The Geology notes in any case that, if one looks for a lived island and his archipelago, submerged 9000 years before our era in front of the "Columns of hercules", this island exists well!  This is the bulk of the line of argument of this item that puts the problem of a coincidence enough disrupting, and so far been unaware of, to rest the question of the origin of the Platonic myth …

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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 11:02:39 pm »

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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 11:03:33 pm »

I think we can all see that Jacques has a scientific theory, arrived at through geology.  The scientific method is sound, and the work he has done on it is clearly all his, for the most part based on climate modelling, core samples and projected ocean levels during the Ice Age.

The work by the othe claimant to this theory possesses no such scientific basis, in fact, near as I can tell, there is no original basis for his theory at all, simply a cynical attempt to "piggyback" the discoveries of another, seemingly in an attempt to increase his own standing. 

Quite sad. 
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